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Post by tzsteve on Jun 26, 2021 21:03:58 GMT
this has been an interesting job. i was planning to fit this clutch during the nasty winter weather, but life gets complicated.
a couple of weeks ago the simple job of replacing the plates in my surflex clutch became a full strip when soft ollys dropped a nut into the gear box, not to big an issue just a strip and rebuild also fitting the Hartz clutch while the engine was apart.
bingo the pixies in my shed had hidden the flywheel puller, job goes on hold.
so today we start again using the new puller. I did not realise that the clutch basket, gear pinion, and cush drive springs and backing plate had to be assembled inside the engine. (Gosh what fun that was) but as I had bought the correct clutch holding tool i could at least get the Cush springs to go into the right position.
ok so on with rebuilding the rest of the engine. (Bugger) I do not have the oil seal for the drive side of the crank. so all the engine bits and the spanners etc go back into my play pen.
now I'm being a bit smarter and have a few of all the oil seals on order, and the job is again on hold.
the Hartz clutch looks well made. its just a shame the the steel plates are not a little thicker.
i think the friction plates are from a Honda CR80 but I'm not certain.
Can anybody offer more info on the plates please gents?
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Post by daz on Jun 27, 2021 8:30:23 GMT
Morning Steve,
Give Songs of Praise a miss this afternoon and spend some time on the LTH site.
There is some very good info about the clutch and the plates which I think will be useful.
Lots of old threads on here about the Hartz Clutch that may also help.
Happy Sunday viewing as I'm getting ready for Antiques Roadshow today.
A little bit of irrelevance after such a long time away from this superb forum.
Daz
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Post by tzsteve on Jun 27, 2021 8:50:41 GMT
daz thanks for the tip about the LTH site, I will certainly have a look at that later. Enjoy the road show I, songs of praise? not for me I'm a militant heathen.
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Post by GeorgeS on Jun 27, 2021 10:04:33 GMT
How about a couple of hours with Johnny Walker on Radio 2? That's a nice accompaniment in the garage on a sunday afternoon.
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Post by tzsteve on Jun 27, 2021 12:59:43 GMT
Radio 2, Showing your age mate.
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Post by tzsteve on Jun 27, 2021 13:02:03 GMT
I checked the LTH site, some nice stuff .i know from experience they are more helpful than sip or scooter-centre gmb
Worth looking at
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2021 13:57:26 GMT
Radio 2, Showing your age mate. Tbh - radio2 is the only station that makes sense.... very little boony rap and the type of shite our older kids listen too 😂
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Post by tzsteve on Jun 27, 2021 15:54:56 GMT
Radio 2, Showing your age mate. Tbh - radio2 is the only station that makes sense.... very little boony rap and the type of shite our older kids listen too 😂 Its worse for me i listen to radio 4 But i ai t got the pipe and slippers yet Just saving up for a race tuned zimmer frame
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Post by eean on Jun 27, 2021 21:31:50 GMT
Yep CR80 plates and same oil as cr80 I used in the sprinter
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Post by tzsteve on Jun 28, 2021 10:18:51 GMT
Thanks for the info,
i did a bit of reading on the sae80/90. they come in a few flavours GL4 GL5 and MT types it seems that the GL type oils can be corrosive to yellow metals ( phossie bronze ) if the metal is under heavy loads or at higher temperatures
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Post by henri on Jun 29, 2021 6:07:30 GMT
I checked the LTH site, some nice stuff .i know from experience they are more helpful than sip or scooter-centre gmb Worth looking at the new sip site i find very unhelpful ,unless i want to buy a vespa man-bag or watch videos of bearded krauts riding in t-shirts on mountain roads . ive heard of the gL oils being corrosive to yellow metals ,but its whats reccomended for my DRT clutch an the crimaz ones too .only place it could be troublesome is on the bush in centre of primary the tree runs in i reckon.ive used it ,but decided to up my gear oil changes to every 500 miles ,as it seems to be from info i found its high temps degrade the oil an then its corrosive .H
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Post by jbcollier on Jun 29, 2021 12:47:30 GMT
Some GL5 oils are corrosive to yellow metals. GL4 oils are not. GL4 and GL5 are high pressure gear oils designed for the very high face loads of automotive hypoid diffs. There is nothing in a scooter gear box that gets anywhere near those loads.
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Post by tzsteve on Jun 29, 2021 18:23:28 GMT
Some GL5 oils are corrosive to yellow metals. GL4 oils are not. GL4 and GL5 are high pressure gear oils designed for the very high face loads of automotive hypoid diffs. There is nothing in a scooter gear box that gets anywhere near those loads. thanks mate. nice to know
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Post by jonnysnatchsniffer on Jul 19, 2021 18:33:37 GMT
yeah but only certain years, they are also fitted to xl185 and some cb models, the genuine honda plates are a bit grabby with strong springs but not as bad a p range snatch, al i got when i got mine was a box full of stuff with no clue as how to do it, but yas it has to be built inside the cases, i alsi suggest you dont use loctite on any of the machine screws as i made that mistake and rounded off the torx heads when taking it out i also found that compressing the springs did not work with the screws provided so had to use fully threaded ones, it was a bit harem scarem using the strongest springs as the m5 screws i used were bending like a banana and had they let go would have hurt, even with the xl2 clutch cover the fucker is not really good in traffic, or im jus a bit gay now and cant handle a mans clutch i use motul 10w40 MA rated for wet clutches as recommended by the mx dealer i got the plates off which you can buy singularly, the steels are fine and dont warp
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Post by tzsteve on Jul 20, 2021 17:24:12 GMT
well i got all the plates in and that took longer than expected.
i also managed to get the gear cables the wrong way round ( TWICE ****** ) so i sorted that
then set off down the road for a test ride and BINGO the clutch came loose on the shaft obviously i never got the clutch nut tight enough so that`s a job for the weekend
i could really do with some lighter springs re the torx screws i found some A4 flange torx screws
not the easiest clutch to fit but the quality is nice
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2021 18:08:47 GMT
well i got all the plates in and that took longer than expected. i also managed to get the gear cables the wrong way round ( TWICE ****** ) so i sorted that then set of down the road for a test ride and BINGO the clutch came loose on the shaft obviously i never got the clutch nut tight enough so that`s a job for the weekend i could really do with some lighter springs re the torx screws i found some A4 flange torx screws not the easiest clutch to fit but the quality is nice RE gear cables, think...twist... connect 👍 never fails, unless you've had a few tins then repeat before connecting. Clutch coming lose on the shaft is occupational hazard during early builds - but a learning curve, most racers locktite basket and ditch woodruff key- personally never been brave enough to try that yet 😂 How many miles did you do? Easy to open up the keyway slot on tree shaft with a spirited ride lol - been there done that.
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Post by tzsteve on Jul 20, 2021 19:06:01 GMT
hi mate. no key slot on the hartz clutch in theory the taper holds the clutch not the key the key only helps to locate the parts while doing the initial tightening its the same as a big end pin if its pressed in tight it wont move i did a few sums and a estimate it take about 3 or 4 tons to pull the clutch of the taper
provided its all a good fit in the first place and there is no dirt or oil in there
so its out with the diamond grinding paste to lap the clutch and shaft
this will be a weekend job and as you say its all a learning curve but you would think that after 40 years of playing with smallies i would get it right
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Post by tzsteve on Jul 20, 2021 19:08:43 GMT
im still trying to sell 2 complete single spring 4 plate surflex clutches £30 for the pair posted
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Post by henri on Jul 21, 2021 5:53:41 GMT
thats a bugger TZ ,slipping on the tree like that ,with your experience an skills i'd doubt the taper in hartz centre .you wouldnt expect it on a hartz there top quality kit ,but weve all grown use to no fit out the box expensive stuff .out with the lapping paste for you then .H
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Post by jonnysnatchsniffer on Jul 22, 2021 18:22:43 GMT
with the clutch holder and a 2p piece on a bit of string you can do the clutch nut up tight as fuck depending on what tree yr using, the drt f1 runner tree can handle about the same as the rear hub !!! 100 odd ftlb or more, without the keyway its always a good idea to lap the spider onto the tree like you would a flywheel then use the strongest loctite you can find i have heard that the f1 runner tree is not compatable with the hartz 4/5 but i cant see why, the tapers seem to match when lapped, all i can think of is the distance outwards of the cover as the f1 tree is a bit longer than the xl2 and previous runner trees so needs attention on the hub spacing, with the prim backplate needing more attention than the pk item, and that also depends on clutch cover too early ones are not too bad but pk ones are shite for clearance
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