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Post by eean on Feb 13, 2013 19:44:37 GMT
Tony, just the clutch in grammes. What weight is the Falc clutch?
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Post by eean on Feb 13, 2013 19:48:42 GMT
Eeeean Mine of course has slightly less power than the Racers BUT ive still used the woodruff key and used locktite on the taper and thread and since it was First built abused ,blown, stripped built blown need i say more hasnt shown any signs of the key giving up AT ALL.....i cant remember what torque its set at but its tight.... Good luck mate Cheers Nick, am sure it will be fine
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Post by 225worb on Feb 13, 2013 19:51:37 GMT
Tony, just the clutch in grammes. What weight is the Falc clutch? Phwaor thats very niiiiice
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Post by eean on Feb 13, 2013 19:54:41 GMT
Its just in a DRT bag Nick as my Mrs would do her nut putting an oily clutch on her scales, its a Hartz clutch
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Post by jonnysnatchsniffer on Feb 13, 2013 21:07:26 GMT
i have to say that some of the 100hp compressors that ive had the disspleasure of working on use no taper on the end of the shaft, and the woodruff is the key and very hard to shear, ive only ever sheared keys on lammys and vespas due to wanky tapers. the little primary cog is another hard to shear the woody off fucker, so even the littelist of tapers will do the job for the clutch spider
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Post by tony on Feb 13, 2013 21:13:05 GMT
Tony, just the clutch in grammes. What weight is the Falc clutch? Will check tomorrow mate and report in. Not at home at the moment
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Post by tony on Feb 13, 2013 21:14:44 GMT
Johnny.. I sheared two primary keys too but this was more down to using a primary designed for a 6303 rather than a 6204. Drt have changed the design now thank god
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Post by tony on Feb 13, 2013 21:16:41 GMT
In fact I destroyed one half of a Falc crank with one of these early primaries !! 😳
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Post by jonnysnatchsniffer on Feb 13, 2013 22:36:06 GMT
heres some pics of the spider, not up to yr photographic skills tony, but if you wanna have a look in the flesh, and yr passing up the m3 pop in for a coffee a clutch plate bottom plate ill post some more up when ive charged the camera
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Post by amazombi on Feb 13, 2013 23:02:48 GMT
i have to say that some of the 100hp compressors that ive had the disspleasure of working on use no taper on the end of the shaft, and the woodruff is the key and very hard to shear, ive only ever sheared keys on lammys and vespas due to wanky tapers. the little primary cog is another hard to shear the woody off fucker, so even the littelist of tapers will do the job for the clutch spider It's not the power but the torque that is the problem. There is much more torque (how much less depends on the primary) on the clutch than on the primary side of the crank for instance. Torque is power divided by RPM. Since power more or less stays the same throughout the engine but RPM variies considerably torque changes too. Torque at the rear wheel at the same engine speed variies with the gear you're in. Hence your scooter wheelies in first, but (usually) not in fourth gear. Same power, but different torque. So with the 100hp compressors I'd assume we're talking about a shaft which spins at high rpm. Strictly speaking a considerable part of the torque at the small primary cog is dealt with by the friction between the side of the cog and the inner ring of the bearing. Same situation with the largeframe clutch, btw. If you don't tighten the nuts there properly the key and its slot will be destroyed. The small gear cog has become a bit of a problem with some of the ESC guys recently. I guess the supershort primaries and all the shifiting on tight tracks makes live hard for these parts. At a guess I'd say this type of racing puts less stress on cylinder, piston and crank, but more on the drive train than racing larger tracks.
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Post by tony on Feb 13, 2013 23:47:41 GMT
Yes I think that could be he case. Something to consider though is the Cush drive . A weak Cush drive sends the shock elsewhere and the weakest point lets go.
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Post by tony on Feb 14, 2013 9:33:54 GMT
Ian. Falc I have here is 560g
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Post by tony on Feb 14, 2013 9:34:13 GMT
Johnny... Cheers mate
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Post by eean on Feb 14, 2013 9:48:59 GMT
@ Tony - that is light ;D One question re shaft of the christmas tree, why cant it be made straight, thicker and with a larger keyway as in compressors for example?
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Post by amazombi on Feb 14, 2013 9:55:20 GMT
I think you need to make sure you put the same parts on the scale, otherwise it's hardly comparable.
What are you concerned about? Unsprung weight? Or inertia? If the latter you shouldn't be looking at the weight but at the distribution of it. The beefy bits of the clutch are pretty close to the axle whereas the stuff that really is important is light.
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Post by tony on Feb 14, 2013 11:03:13 GMT
What do you mean the same parts Mathias?
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Post by tony on Feb 14, 2013 11:08:25 GMT
When l look at a race engine i look at it as a whole. I look to see where any losses may be. The hartz is a larger diameter clutch that appears to weigh over 200g more. If I can get the job done with a smaller diameter lighter clutch then all good in terms of unsprung weight and inertia losses. Less weight on that small taper must be a good thing also ?
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Post by tony on Feb 14, 2013 11:09:54 GMT
@ Tony - that is light ;D One question re shaft of the christmas tree, why cant it be made straight, thicker and with a larger keyway as in compressors for example? I am sure there is even better solutions than that mate? I am sure somewhere i have seen dedicated clutch and tree combinations.
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Post by amazombi on Feb 14, 2013 12:05:20 GMT
What do you mean the same parts Mathias? Clutchplates, primary repair kit (springs, plates), inner basekt, outer basket. If your weighing didn't include one part it's not comparable. The absolute weight is only one factor, as I've said already. The further away from the axle the higher the circumferential speed. If you have 1kg at the very centre it puts less load and eats up less energy than if it was 50mm away from the centre. I've never heard of a layshaft shearing off, so that wouldn't be high on my list of priorities. I'd say my priorities would be reliabiltiy, reliability and then reliability. The difference in power that arrives at the rearwheel appears to be pretty much negligible between the different modern clutches (if they don't slip that is). With endurance racing (up to 24h) you have an ideal testing ground, and the Hartz track record there is pretty difficult to beat. Falc clutches work really well, in terms of longevity and reliabilty (wear of the clutch plates for instance) they are not in the same league as a Hartz, I'd say. At the end of the day only part of the decision is technical though. If one as a person relates to some other person, or if one is happy with what one has, then by all means go ahead and keep using that product. The woodruff key doesn't work with high torque. If you want a "Formschluss" somthing like that www.iprotec.de/images/w2dpostcard013606a02f0bfd60b_320_240.jpg is the way to go. As I've said above already there's an Italian guy who makes these for the primary (and maybe for the clutch also), and GP1 have used that for their smallframe crankshafts. I'd say for the layshaft/clutch connection it's a solution in search of a problem.
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Post by tony on Feb 14, 2013 12:50:03 GMT
Look I am not knocking the hartz that appears to be great. I am looking at an alternative to Falc and weighing up pros and cons. As you have rightly said its all about weight on a wider circumference . Well isn't the hartz using a wider basket and plates? I am not endurance racing neither is the proposed motor I am building at some point. Ian what's the weight please of the hartz basket, springs and Cush plate and if possible a bare large primary gear. We will compare it all!!!
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