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Post by breezer on Feb 13, 2012 19:43:58 GMT
It don't bother me, and I doubt doing an ME109 themed scooter would work without the badges etc.
But it is what it is, and you're never going to pass it off as anything other than glorifying a nazi.
History is written by the victors so if things had turned out differently in '45 there may be more vehicles with this theme around (although possibly no Vespas?)
I think it's what was carried out in the name of the nazis rather than by single servicemen that causes offence to many.
It's nicely executed on the bike though, well painted, fits well to the shapes of the panels etc. I'd be nervous leaving it unattended anywhere however.
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Post by Perkin on Feb 13, 2012 19:48:51 GMT
...especially Tel Aviv
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Post by Juan on Feb 13, 2012 20:00:11 GMT
Yeah, the Nazi's reversed the Swatika.
I presume the reason for this was to reverse the meaning from previously.
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Post by swallow on Feb 13, 2012 20:14:09 GMT
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Post by dazss90falc on Feb 13, 2012 20:20:45 GMT
yeah i take your point breezer, in no way am i trying to glorify anything especially thing which are offensive, but i believe if your going to do a themed scoot then it has to be correct in every aspect. I'm no follower of the masses and rarely sit on the fence. After the second world war Erich Hartmann was handed over to the Russians and was imprisoned in a Siberian labour camp, he was released in 1955 under pressure from the west and trained pilots in the then jet age for NATO, not a Nazi or tried for war crimes but awarded the highest honour by NATO. great getting everones views, debate is good
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Post by scooterist on Feb 13, 2012 20:40:40 GMT
I like it alot Daz, controversial theme or not... i like the RAF themed one being done too... i find the thought of 20.000 people being slaughtered and 40.000 others injured within the first 24 hours of battle of the somme horryifying..... different war i know......... Old " Erich" might have been shit hot with his in flight gun, but then its not like we are all goose stepping around here in the UK because of his efforts... anyway if everyone wasnt busy flying around shooting and dropping bombs back in 1943 or whenever, Pontedera wouldnt have been flattened and Piaggio might still be making war plans and trams and not Vespa`s... so every cloud has a silver lining and all that. ... ive also never fully understood the Marmite thing..?? i honestly dont know anyone who truly LOVES or HATES marmite, you either like it enough to eat it or you dont...
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Post by breezer on Feb 13, 2012 21:04:03 GMT
anyway if everyone wasnt busy flying around shooting and dropping bombs back in 1943 or whenever, Pontedera wouldnt have been flattened and Piaggio might still be making war plans and trams and not Vespa`s... That's what I meant about there being no Vespas. The reason Italy, Japan & Germany could produce such good cars & bikes etc was due to us paying for them all to have new engineering tooling while we struggled on with worn out stuff. As for Erich not being a nazi... I don't know. I find it hard to believe he would be so keen to shoot three hundred and fifty odd fellas out of the sky if he wasn't 'bought in' to the regime. I don't KNOW though so that's just my take on it. Maybe I was being a bit harsh when I said you'd never be able to pass it off as anything but glorifying a nazi. Maybe it should have been you'll STRUGGLE to pass it off as anything but glorifying a nazi. Daft thing is Adolf could just have been patient, and he would have lived to see Germany ruling Europe.
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Post by amazombi on Feb 16, 2012 10:11:03 GMT
Reversal of swastika: Not sure about that. I've been to India and a few other places around there, and you find both versions on pretty old stuff even. From what I know there's different interpretations of the sign as such, one is that it's the rays of the sun (so reversing it wouldn't make such a big difference), another one is that it is a stylised depiction of a couple in the act in the a tergo position. Again reversing it wouldn't change much. Whatever it is, once it's used in that context it's not longer an ancient symbol of love, peace and happiness. It quite clearly becomes of symbol of Nazi-Germany. I mean frankly, could you really imagine an SS-guard in a concentration camp telling one of the people he's just about to murder that the symbols on his uniform may trigger negative assiciations with him as an individual, but that in a larger context it's actually love, peace and happiness which are represented?
Be that as it may, I personally find the glorification of war-heroes slightly anachronistic. One man's war hero invariably is the muderer of another one's child, brother, sister, parent, grandparent. I mean, frankly, if you have children and one of them is slaughtered by the most elegantly dressed axe-murderer of all time, would you in all honesty appreciate that bloke's fans' tribute to the demonstrations of his "art"? I'm not sure I'd have that in me.
On a different note members of my family have come home from both world wars with decorations, some haven't returned, and others had to leave the country that was home to them against their will because they'd married the wrong person, or chosen the wrong political leaning. Most of them are dead by now, when they weren't I always found it difficult to love them as a grandparents, fully knowing that they had been given "Mein Kampf" as a wedding present (and it's not as if Hitler was unspecific about his ideas in that books) and that they, at a time, supported a murderous regime with their actions. Russia for instance in all probabilty wasn't about man-on-man situations with knightly principles, may the best man win and all that shit, it was about butchering, raping and ultimately burning everything down to make sure nobody would profit anytime soon. Any differentiation between the guys doing that and the guys supporting them, directly or indirectly, up in the air seems to be slightly artificial to me.
At the end of the day it's none of my buyiness of course, and if anybody anywhere in the world wants to celebrate murderers, then that is of course up to him. It's a free world.
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Post by dazss90falc on Feb 18, 2012 7:11:05 GMT
wow that took a bit of swallowing and digesting. not withstanding the moral high ground which a few seem to be taking, Its a Messerschmitt ME109G a great pice of engineering and a piece of history non the less. the theme is not war, not nazi, not SS, not mein Kampf. War should never be a last resort, look at our recent history on this planet, Falklands, Bosnia, Iraq Twice, Afghanistan, and yet we let a known tyrant out of jail because we cant deport him to Jordan, If only Bin Laden could drink, it would all have been sorted at a scooter rally. My last post on the subject, those who like the scoot thankyou, those that don't thankyou, thats a democracy
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Post by amazombi on Feb 18, 2012 7:20:02 GMT
Its a Messerschmitt ME109G a great pice of engineering and a piece of history non the less. the theme is not war, not nazi, not SS, not mein Kampf. I'm not sure that really is the case. An SS90 headset is part of a scooter, and the headset alone will be enough to evoke the complete scooter with the initiated. It may be the same thing here. It's not really about morals either, is it? I mean we are not discussing questions of good and evil here. It's just a custom scooter. With a controversial theme, as you probably knew even before you started it. Quite obviously some people like it while others don't. No big deal really.
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Post by Perkin on Feb 18, 2012 11:14:28 GMT
Not aimed at Dazfalc or any particular individual, but a preoccupation with war, death, violence and aggression has always pervaded the 'cult' scooter scene.
The SS, Sweeney Todd, Vinnie Jones, The Krays etc etc. Need I go on?
I suspect it's the manifestation of a deep-seated insecurity engendered by riding very slow shopper bikes with tiny wheels. Anticipating a 30bhp objection to this point, I'd say to be part of the collective consciousness of this forum you generally have to have ridden something fairly shit that struggles to do 30mph.
;D
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Post by stiltthewilt on Mar 8, 2012 15:54:05 GMT
Nice games room Daz, Is that a snooker table ;D
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Post by Spanish Rob on Mar 10, 2012 10:12:31 GMT
I'm not sure I understand this theme. Either this guy wasn't into what he did in which case celebrating his life using these images and icons is disrespectful to him. Or He was into it, in which case it is a celebration of not only the images and icons used but the philosophy behind them. On a lighter note, if anyone does feel that they have sympathy for the tenets of National Socialism I would strongly recommend Buddhism as an alternative philosophy. I have been practising it for 16 years and more. ;D
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