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Post by bluebadge on Sept 6, 2011 7:12:25 GMT
As may of you know, I've been gathering parts for an engine build over he past few months. I came across a "race" crank for cheap and picked it up. New at $75 was a no brainer at the moment. Now I'm not so sure. Number one, it doesn't appear to be a "race" crank as the cutaway doesn't seem long enough and is definitely not polished. Number two, it's definitely a 24/25 mm crank as the flyside bearing is a 6005. Those things don't concern me a whole lot, but when trying to find a bearing and seal, I had some difficulty. My question is (especially towards Me and Minikin as I caught a conversation between them from '08) how are these conversions holding up on a V series cases? Is anyone out there using this conversion and are the bearings and seals performing adequately? This will be a road bike that will most likely see alot of daily use with some long distance rides as well as long rallies, and I am not a big fan of rebuilding a motor every other month. Another crank question is which bearing to run? Every small end bearing at the local scooter shop was either too large or small. I believe I need something like a 15x20x17. I know the crank small end is 20mm and the pin is 15mm. Inside the Malossi piston measures almost 26mm, but I could get away with 17mm and up. The only bearing I've found on SIP's site that's close, measures 15x20x17.8, but I would like to make sure as returning a $30 small end bearing would be a huge pain in the arse from the states... I have already purchased a non-returnable Vespatronic ignition that fits this crank, so I don't want to have to purchase another crank. Experts, please enlighten this lowly pupil of yours...          |
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Post by bluebadge on Sept 6, 2011 20:58:50 GMT
Nobody??
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Post by madmax on Sept 6, 2011 21:16:59 GMT
Small end bearing is 15x19x20. Get the wiseco from LTH.  |
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Post by Juan on Sept 6, 2011 21:23:30 GMT
Beedspeed and SIP at least do conversion bearings and seals but most of the UK guys on here use Simply Bearings for their bearings, seals and o-rings etc. You must have an equivelent place in the States. The conversion bearings are known to wear that bit quicker but it's certainly cheaper than replacing cranks on a semi regular basis. For smallend bearings you might want to look at Jap dirtbike stuff, maybe more late 80's to mid 90's than newer stuff as I've not really had anything to do with dirtbikes in the best part of 2 decades.
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Post by bluebadge on Sept 6, 2011 21:31:21 GMT
Beedspeed and SIP at least do conversion bearings and seals but most of the UK guys on here use Simply Bearings for their bearings, seals and o-rings etc. You must have an equivelent place in the States. The conversion bearings are known to wear that bit quicker but it's certainly cheaper than replacing cranks on a semi regular basis. For smallend bearings you might want to look at Jap dirtbike stuff, maybe more late 80's to mid 90's than newer stuff as I've not really had anything to do with dirtbikes in the best part of 2 decades. I read somewhere that the seal can not be purchased at a normal bearing shop. Something about having to do with where the lip is placed? I haven't tried this yet, but I guess it doesn't hurt. max... I'm fairly sure I tried that size bearing at the scoot shop yesterday and it was too small. |
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Post by madmax on Sept 6, 2011 21:40:59 GMT
max... I'm fairly sure I tried that size bearing at the scoot shop yesterday and it was too small. Well, that's what I use in both of my engines and fit fine. Have a look at LTH site anyway, there are different sizes.... |
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Post by bluebadge on Sept 6, 2011 22:03:18 GMT
max... I'm fairly sure I tried that size bearing at the scoot shop yesterday and it was too small. Well, that's what I use in both of my engines and fit fine. Have a look at LTH site anyway, there are different sizes.... Are you running ETS cranks? |
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Post by madmax on Sept 7, 2011 5:57:52 GMT
No, I use 20/20 cranks. Is the conrod on your crank bigger? Sorry not familiar with ETS cranks. Have a look here. If you're unsure, ask Marco which one will fit on your crank. |
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Post by bluebadge on Sept 7, 2011 6:56:40 GMT
No, I use 20/20 cranks. Is the conrod on your crank bigger? Sorry not familiar with ETS cranks. Have a look here. If you're unsure, ask Marco which one will fit on your crank. I believe so. The small end measures 20mm ID on the rod. The bearing that came with the crank is a 15x19x20 and it's too small. I had to measure the bearing to make sure. I am really considering getting another crank at the moment, maybe a 54. Also, I believe it's super long, like 110mm or so. My calipers only go to 100mm and its longer than that. You do measure from center to center, right? |
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Post by jonnysnatchsniffer on Sept 7, 2011 6:57:24 GMT
im using a 32/24/7 seal from a bearing shop (simply) and it seals ok, just have to make sure you dont push it too far in, i pushed mine on when the crank was in and used high strength loctite, whats this about a special lip ? the spring is on the inside and the 24mm seal shoulder on the taper comes out to the front of the case so i cant see a problem with it, but ive only just done mine and it only has a mile on the clock so time will tell
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Post by bluebadge on Sept 7, 2011 7:49:02 GMT
im using a 32/24/7 seal from a bearing shop (simply) and it seals ok, just have to make sure you dont push it too far in, i pushed mine on when the crank was in and used high strength loctite, whats this about a special lip ? the spring is on the inside and the 24mm seal shoulder on the taper comes out to the front of the case so i cant see a problem with it, but ive only just done mine and it only has a mile on the clock so time will tell That's good news. I'll try a local place first before ordering for SIP. |
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Post by amazombi on Sept 7, 2011 7:53:53 GMT
Conrod length on an ETS crank is 97mm, same as with all other 51mm stroke cranks. Your conrod could be a Sachs ILO which would make it 104mm, I think. That one would have a 21mm smallend though.
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Post by bluebadge on Sept 7, 2011 17:40:31 GMT
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Post by jonnysnatchsniffer on Sept 7, 2011 21:15:16 GMT
well your gonna need a piston with a 16mm pin for that rod
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Post by bluebadge on Sept 7, 2011 21:57:55 GMT
well your gonna need a piston with a 16mm pin for that rod Well, I went ahead and ordered a 15x20x17.8 from a Yamaha dealer. I'll let you guys know if it works out. I am curious as to why this crank has this weird rod? I guess it's a good thing considering I'll prolly use a thick packing to set the cylinder... |
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Post by ttscshaggy on Sept 7, 2011 22:17:25 GMT
you'll be able to use a decent TZR 125 piston  |
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Post by amazombi on Sept 8, 2011 4:59:42 GMT
Sorry, my mistake. That Sachs ILO is 20 mm smallendhole, so that's what you have. As has been said you could use a TZR piston. The Malossi is not the strongest piston in the world, it does have pretty decent rings though and it comes with their own CVF system which appears to help at least a bit.
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Post by bluebadge on Sept 8, 2011 5:22:22 GMT
Sorry, my mistake. That Sachs ILO is 20 mm smallendhole, so that's what you have. As has been said you could use a TZR piston. The Malossi is not the strongest piston in the world, it does have pretty decent rings though and it comes with their own CVF system which appears to help at least a bit. I hate to sound like a noob, but what is a CVF system? And would it be more reasonable to use a Yamaha piston than the Malossi piston? |
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Post by amazombi on Sept 8, 2011 7:25:22 GMT
Look at the sides of your Malossi piston. You will see that the piston skirt has a few holes and is slightly set back. The idea was to compensate for the relatively small are of the transfers by flowing some more gas though the piston and along the sides of its skirt. Since not even Malossi uses it on their later kits it's probably a fair assumption to say it wasn't the hottest thing ever. Still engines with the standard piston tend to have the edge on power over ones with conversion pistons. The Malossi piston is not superstrong on the inlet side, but rings are good and overall quality isn't that bad. TZR piston needs some holes cut in, and the head needs reprofiling (it's shape is close to the malossi, but not identicall, if I remember correctly). All in all I'd keep the piston for the time being and run it with a 20x15 bearing.
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Post by bluebadge on Sept 8, 2011 7:45:55 GMT
Look at the sides of your Malossi piston. You will see that the piston skirt has a few holes and is slightly set back. The idea was to compensate for the relatively small are of the transfers by flowing some more gas though the piston and along the sides of its skirt. Since not even Malossi uses it on their later kits it's probably a fair assumption to say it wasn't the hottest thing ever. Still engines with the standard piston tend to have the edge on power over ones with conversion pistons. The Malossi piston is not superstrong on the inlet side, but rings are good and overall quality isn't that bad. TZR piston needs some holes cut in, and the head needs reprofiling (it's shape is close to the malossi, but not identicall, if I remember correctly). All in all I'd keep the piston for the time being and run it with a 20x15 bearing. Thanks Mathias, I appreciate all the help you've been giving. I guess I should've asked first, but I've already started to cut my cylinder similar to what I saw on the GSF forum. I figured if I flow them well and set the timing to that which you sugest, I should come out close to my goal of 20 HP? What do you think about the way they cut em? I've already opened the transfers all the way inside the barrel... Hopefully I haven't killed the barrel! www.germanscooterforum.de/Vespa_V50_Primavera_ET3_PK_f14/Malossi_136_wirklich_t185542.html |
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