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Post by nige1972 on Apr 15, 2013 16:29:08 GMT
Hi all, its smallie time again Got a 50 special here that I been asked to sort out. First is to fit a speedo cos there is a blank where it should be with some switches fitted to the blank. The original light switch is in place so Im presuming that its faulty and someones bodged another light/horn switch to it. The headlight is fitted with a single filament 6v 15w bulb thats blown surprisingly and the rear light has a 12v 5w festoon but no brake light bulb. Apparently the brake light has been disconnected due to a wiring fault So all bulbs are blown, there is a problem with the wiring somewhere that is earthing the light feed cos when I test the output from stator there is no voltage until I disconnect the wiring loom and then we have power, lots of power infact as when I rev the engine the voltage shoots up to 30 volts. There is no regulator fitted. The stator appears to be a 2 coil type, but there is only 3 wires running to the junction box, a red (ignition I think) a green (again presume lights) and a black (an earth?)...so what do you guys think? Im thinking I may have to pull the loom, new headlight, new switch and find out why the stator is putting out so much power
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Post by Boamspeed on Apr 15, 2013 19:50:50 GMT
Have you checked whether your model has a brake light? Only reason I ask is on some imports that had no speedo they were never fitted with a brake light.
Also on a UK 50 spesh there are 5 wires leaving a 2 pole stator; red - ht coil/cut out switch black - earth blue - feed to brake light switch green - horn then to switch yellow - switch for head & tail lights
It could be yours is a non brake light model and the green feeds the horn and then up to the switch to power the lights but i'm not familiar with this type so can't say for certain. This would be unusual though as normally you have a constant feed for the horn & brake light and a separate feed to the switch to power the lights. is there any other wires in the loom at the junction box that aren't being used?
I agree there is a short circuit in the loom if the stator shows no power when it is connected. if you disconnect the loom from the stator and test the loom wires individually to earth you may be able to id the problem but as you state another switch has been fitted obviously some 'alterations' have been made so starting again with a new loom & switch might be a good idea.
I also think its normal to have a higher voltage shown on a non regulated lighting circuit when you rev the engine but 30v does seem high? I'd suggest you inspect the stator and test the coils for short circuits.
Hope this helps
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Post by Juan on Apr 15, 2013 20:22:13 GMT
Sounds like an Italian home market job. 2 pole stator, headlight with only side and mainbeam and no brakelight. Could get very pricey so you'd best warn them.
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Post by Juan on Apr 15, 2013 20:40:22 GMT
Forgot to say that the bulbs regulate the charge in these systems, I don't really understand electrical circuts too well but Jonnysnatch will know.
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marco64
ET3
'76 Primavera, '82 Primavera ET3
Posts: 127
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Post by marco64 on Apr 15, 2013 21:08:20 GMT
Hi, Vespa 50 special was the first vespa I ever owned in Italy as a kid. Red green and black only from stator plate to engine junction box is correct. Google Image "vespa 50 special wiring diagram" and the first color diagram that appears confirms this- and shows no brake light (in italy a 50cc was considered little more than a bicycle and you could ride it at 14, and without crash helmet! Surprisingly Im still alive).
Importantly, you need to change ALL light bulbs to correct wattage and must ALL be 6 volts (beedspeed stock them).Otherwise you will get current imbalances which will cause plenty weird faults. It is such a basic wiring loom, if I were you I would change the loom to a new one (again beedpeed) and connect the proper switches. A few hours fiddling=years of reliable scooter afterwards! And you can then fit a 50 special speedometer +cable (this was optional at the time)
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Post by nige1972 on Apr 15, 2013 21:26:55 GMT
Thanks for the advice chaps. Yes the loom looks to be basic but there is a second connection for the brake light and it is wired up although I think it may be an extra wire run through the frame. If the bulbs have to be factory spec can I run a brake light off this spec? I think I may need to convert the headlight to hi/low beam aswell because the switch has the hi/low option and this would be an mot fail in uk. Does the 50 special speedo have an ulimination option aswell? not to worry if not. Best bet I think as you say Juan is an expensive one and thats to convert to 12v electronic but with new loom, switch, headlight your looking at 300+ odd just on parts...ouch. thanks again for advice..what do you think best option is or cheapest way of running brake light etc. I noticed beedspeed sell 12v conversions but not for the 2 x coil stator.
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Post by nige1972 on Apr 15, 2013 21:35:02 GMT
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marco64
ET3
'76 Primavera, '82 Primavera ET3
Posts: 127
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Post by marco64 on Apr 15, 2013 21:36:16 GMT
Up to you but 6v bulbs and loom by far the cheapest option, and if registered before 86 as it is a 50cc moped completely legal without break light (plenty resources on line explaining about what you need and what you do to be legal with old mopeds, bikes etc). If you put it back as original you have an appreciating classic, or you can go even further from the real thing it seems to be already!
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Post by madmax on Apr 15, 2013 21:52:58 GMT
(in italy a 50cc was considered little more than a bicycle and you could ride it at 14, and without crash helmet! Surprisingly Im still alive). Oh yes, those were the days! ;D
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marco64
ET3
'76 Primavera, '82 Primavera ET3
Posts: 127
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Post by marco64 on Apr 15, 2013 22:10:47 GMT
T-shirt, flip flops, towel for the beach in front rack and girlfriend in bikini at the back ;D
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Post by Juan on Apr 15, 2013 22:11:00 GMT
Nige, do as Marco has said first as it could well turn out to be that simple, and fingers crossed that it is. But conversely it could also be a whole new system so best get them warned.
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Post by madmax on Apr 15, 2013 22:25:07 GMT
T-shirt, flip flops, towel for the beach in front rack and girlfriend in bikini at the back ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Post by nige1972 on Apr 16, 2013 6:47:00 GMT
Looked into the uk mot laws and it seems that you are correct regarding brake light pre 1986 BUT it reads that if the moped is made after 1972 then you must have hi/low beam on headlight. Had a word with an mot tester mate and he says that if there is a switch for hi/low then he must test for one so will fail if not present? any ideas on that problem?
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marco64
ET3
'76 Primavera, '82 Primavera ET3
Posts: 127
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Post by marco64 on Apr 16, 2013 7:04:41 GMT
He is right and it is not a problem. The wiring diagram I referred to shows the scoot has high/low beam. As I was saying... New loom £30, a handful of 6V light bulbs maybe a fiver including spares, A new chromed switch cluster -about £10? And you have a good as new 50special, legal, MOTable, and the space for the optional 50special speedo. I hope this helps!
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Post by firekdp on Apr 16, 2013 12:26:51 GMT
there is a problem with the wiring somewhere that is earthing the light feed cos when I test the output from stator there is no voltage until I disconnect the wiring loom and then we have power, lots of power infact as when I rev the engine the voltage shoots up to 30 volts. Are you sure that the short you are looking for isn't supposed to be there, most of these old systems used "normally closed" switches that shorted power to earth. Switching on removes the short so power reaches the lamps. And yes, without any load fitted the stator should produce a high voltage.
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Post by nige1972 on Apr 16, 2013 16:12:14 GMT
this diagram Marco? > if so it looks like single filamant. Brown for parking and purple for main beam or am I not looking at it right? When you say chromed switch cluster what do you mean mate? universal motorcyle switch? I can only find one 50 special headlight switch at beedspeed and thats around 25 quid and has hi/low beam. It would be easier if could I buy another stator /loom/swicth/headlight and with provision for brake lights, so I could wire it up to uk spec with hi/low beam and brake light? is there one available?
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Post by firekdp on Apr 17, 2013 8:26:30 GMT
Being as the festoon is a 15W lamp, the same as the main lamp, I would suggest that it is your dip beam and you have no pilot (parking) lamps.
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Post by nige1972 on Apr 17, 2013 14:13:18 GMT
Yes mate, I was thinking about this last night. I think the confusion is that the main and hi beam are separate bulbs whereas im used to dealing with twin filament. Ive been looking over beedspeeds brake light conversion wiring diagram and the brake light is just a simple take off from the main power wire onto the switch then from there onto the brake bulb. I m sure that has been done to this scooter but there is a problem with the wiring that needs sorting. Hopefully I it shall be an easy problem to sort one I fix the loom and order some bulbs.
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marco64
ET3
'76 Primavera, '82 Primavera ET3
Posts: 127
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Post by marco64 on Apr 17, 2013 20:35:14 GMT
Firekdp you are right, violet wire main beam, brown low beam. Sorry Nige you are right, 50 special doesn't have chromed lights switch, it's all plastic and I do mean the original location i.e. in the headset near the throttle. I still wouldn't convert it- I would renew but as per original. Just my opinion!
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Post by nige1972 on Apr 25, 2013 18:58:48 GMT
Story so far: New loom with brake light addition (sorry Marco), speedo fitted (speedo worm and drive cog that sits on spindle missing) Indian speedo fitted (works ok but retaining screw slightly off so cant screw down)..Why does a new loom from Beedspeed come with spade connectors at the engine side when the original are round conections? nevermind, changed them. Spoke to Alan at Beedspeed and he confirmed what I was told here about the bulbs (the wattage not the voltage) regulating the power output.. So fitted 15w main beam and as the 15w festoon was too big for the parking light I used the 10w. That got very bright and blew..15w was ok. Somehow I blew the rear light so only had a 10w festoon to play with. In the rear light it worked ok, in the brake light it work ok...with the lights on- when the lights were off it became a hardly visual glow and could only see it with the lense off. Should be getting a few 10w and a few 5w festoon bulbs tomorrow so shall see what happens. If the brake light is too faint with lights off it may be best to wire the lights on permanently but not really worked out how to sort that out..will wait and see what happens when all bulbs are in.
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