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Post by 225worb on Nov 18, 2011 19:37:16 GMT
I wouldve/would love to race but cash just doesnt allow plus i have other hobbies tooo so cutting youre cake accordlingly is the word id use, Sponsoring helps alot for some people to doesnt it even if its just having your oil payed for ....
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Post by amazombi on Nov 18, 2011 20:08:50 GMT
I think most people underestimate the time it takes to keep a racer competitive and to continue developing it. In my experience with 8 races a year plus a bit of training and developing 4 bikes (plus 4 spare frames and 8 engines) keep one mechanic busy full time. That was automatic scooters on a level that enabled you to compete successfully on both a national and an international level.
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Post by tony on Nov 19, 2011 0:10:52 GMT
totally agree. The attention to detail I have to make to build that falc motor for example most of you wouldnt believe. And you have to do it this way to make sure its 100% reliable and 100% on the money power wise. Martin Hotwheels witnessed it when I rebuilt his M1r into new casings. It takes soooo much time. You cant think "oh, it wil be ok" because usually this doubt will come back and bite you. My biggest frustration is being so far away from a dyno that I cannot run or test my bike before hand except a quick blast up the street with the neighbours looking out the window wondering what the noise is!! Nik.. yes sponsors help.. VE and scooter center have helped me with suspension parts... its a massive help. And they get advertising back in return. You will find many companies will be interested in parts help. Marco sorts me gaskets here and there.. Lauro sends the odd goodie and keeps me in clutch plates! (though I sorted that now thank god). ;D
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Post by soosh on Nov 19, 2011 7:04:01 GMT
My biggest frustration is being so far away from a dyno that I cannot run or test my bike before hand except a quick blast up the street with the neighbours looking out the window wondering what the noise is!! I know someone else who had that trouble and said "dyno bollocks!"
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Post by amazombi on Nov 19, 2011 8:35:56 GMT
There are ways to evaluate performance and to develop an engine without a dyno. None of them very efficient though. People who don't appreciate the merits of a dyno usually haven't worked with one.
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Post by mattblack on Nov 19, 2011 8:37:57 GMT
To be fair, anyone that worries about being laughed at wouldn't be riding a scooter of any description.
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Post by tony on Nov 19, 2011 10:21:36 GMT
My biggest frustration is being so far away from a dyno that I cannot run or test my bike before hand except a quick blast up the street with the neighbours looking out the window wondering what the noise is!! I know someone else who had that trouble and said "dyno bollocks!" Yes whose son's bikes have just won 125 bsb two years running and knows the worth of dyno time and its help with development. I have heard other people say things like that. It shows naivety. Or maybe it shows the level things are at now.
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Post by tony on Nov 19, 2011 10:31:55 GMT
To be fair, anyone that worries about being laughed at wouldn't be riding a scooter of any description. You misunderstand . It wasn't the riders that were concerned. It was the organisers. If people ridicule a race class no matter it be scooters or 600s ..if its ridiculed people are not enjoying it and therefore not pay to watch. That class gets dropped. This is what happened for a while. We raced with several different cllubs during this time before we got to the vmcc. By then kits were allowed. Reliability followed and so did the power.
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Post by hotwheels on Nov 19, 2011 23:58:49 GMT
Having witnessed tony build my engine and modify or adapt and fettle virtually every important component of the engine, then strip and rebuild several times so that all tolerances were spot on the last thing i would have wanted would have been to run it without someone setting it up on a dyno........now i have visited lots of so called TUNERS over the years and only very few had half a clue what they were doing, now charley does know how to design a performance motor/exhaust etc..and definately knows his dyno, having watched him in action and spoken with him about his theory on tuning we are lucky to have blokes like him about, he gets stick as all people at the top of their game do, but having been clocked at over 90mph on the way to iow this year on my m1r and my pk blitzing not only the vespas in my class at the shootout but most of the lambrettas as well i am very pleased with the work i have had done.(the late terry frankland also knew his dyno well and reminded me of charley as he thought my scooters were "sheds" as well)
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Post by soosh on Nov 20, 2011 9:06:59 GMT
I'm the same,any new setup I take to Jerome as he's the nearest.Any new carb or motor then I book it in. But what did people do years ago before dynos? You learnt to do stuff by hand,you got to know the feel of something.Nik on here had a T5 motor done in 88/89 buy a tuner in Oxford,doubt anyone here would have heard of Big Dad the end result was possibly one of the fastest or even the fastest scooter for its size in the UK. Took Nik a while to get carb correct (still a standard carb) but everything worked.If my smallie can be as reliable as that motor that would hit 10k in 4th,I'll be happy.Bit I'm sure it could of been improved on too,a dyno would certainly help on that but Fuck was this thing was good. Even Taff asked what kit it was,when you said it was standard they really thought you were taking the piss and THEY HAD A DYNO. This guy did do (and very occasionally still does) some fast a very reliable motors that went all over the UK no problem.But,like I said,I'd be straight on the phone to book on a dyno session but there are still clever people out there who are not just tuners,their engineers who can do good stuff and just do the dyno on the tarmac.Those guys I've got the greatest respect for.
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Post by hotwheels on Nov 20, 2011 9:55:33 GMT
I think i remember soosh was that the motor i beat at santa pod all them years ago!!!!lol! two different types of tuning and tuners, graham/john at kegra built me a jap ts230 that fookin flew and still does, it apparently took graham 3 days to set up on the road outside their shop where i have had idiots with dynos set me up far less extreme motors and blown up within 50 miles. On the other hand show me someone who can make smallframes like mine and tonys go like they do in the uk??? Not so easy, the meticulous detail they apply to both the theory and practice of tuning i have never seen, i shit you not, do you really think a shrewd business man like tino would bother investing so much if he didnt see something here that he cant find anywhere else? There are lots of very good tuners in the uk and i have great respect for them all, terry did me a kwak 135 in 1984 that was brilliant and niks wicked falc got me back into smallie tuning when i had been farting around with pranges but things move on and when you see the results that are now actual on paper...150cc vespa smallframe 100mph in 500m thats awesome and not pub talk, waffly dyno bhp bollox. Horses for courses, if you want fast road motor that will beat ts1s then lots of good guys out there but if you want the absolute fastest who is better?? And if they are then lets see them at the next shootout ;D
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Post by 225worb on Nov 20, 2011 11:10:15 GMT
I think i remember soosh was that the motor i beat at santa pod all them years ago!!!!lol! two different types of tuning and tuners, graham/john at kegra built me a jap ts230 that fookin flew and still does, it apparently took graham 3 days to set up on the road outside their shop where i have had idiots with dynos set me up far less extreme motors and blown up within 50 miles. On the other hand show me someone who can make smallframes like mine and tonys go like they do in the uk??? Not so easy, the meticulous detail they apply to both the theory and practice of tuning i have never seen, i shit you not, do you really think a shrewd business man like tino would bother investing so much if he didnt see something here that he cant find anywhere else? There are lots of very good tuners in the uk and i have great respect for them all, terry did me a kwak 135 in 1984 that was brilliant and niks wicked falc got me back into smallie tuning when i had been farting around with pranges but things move on and when you see the results that are now actual on paper...150cc vespa smallframe 100mph in 500m thats awesome and not pub talk, waffly dyno bhp bollox. Horses for courses, if you want fast road motor that will beat ts1s then lots of good guys out there but if you want the absolute fastest who is better?? And if they are then lets see them at the next shootout ;D HaHa that was me malossi you just about beat fella and it was in its original 210 form... Me T5 was great on the road but sprinting as alot of road unless set up geared what have you was i think only hitting 68/69mph ill have to have a look at the old tickets.. Im very much the way of the dyno and dont and have to travel quite a distance to Jeromes BUT reason for this because of his proven track record wether scooters/ bikes quads ect champion ship winning tooo. just for for example the guy builds not to trick TS's that out perform RB'S when these are/where meant to be nutts.. I think you really stick to who you know and who are at the end of the even when youve broken your engine again and dont give you the negertory attiude once youve passed over your cash..... I prefer and take great pride building my engines and certainly dont have the finances for others to do it for me but for me thats where the learning starts......
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Post by soosh on Nov 20, 2011 13:51:24 GMT
I think i remember soosh was that the motor i beat at santa pod all them years ago!!!!lol! two different types of tuning and tuners, graham/john at kegra built me a jap ts230 that fookin flew and still does, it apparently took graham 3 days to set up on the road outside their shop where i have had idiots with dynos set me up far less extreme motors and blown up within 50 miles. On the other hand show me someone who can make smallframes like mine and tonys go like they do in the uk??? Not so easy, the meticulous detail they apply to both the theory and practice of tuning i have never seen, i shit you not, do you really think a shrewd business man like tino would bother investing so much if he didnt see something here that he cant find anywhere else? There are lots of very good tuners in the uk and i have great respect for them all, terry did me a kwak 135 in 1984 that was brilliant and niks wicked falc got me back into smallie tuning when i had been farting around with pranges but things move on and when you see the results that are now actual on paper...150cc vespa smallframe 100mph in 500m thats awesome and not pub talk, waffly dyno bhp bollox. Horses for courses, if you want fast road motor that will beat ts1s then lots of good guys out there but if you want the absolute fastest who is better?? And if they are then lets see them at the next shootout ;D I'd like to be at next shootout and want to borrow a motor that i know exists bit will have to wait and see.Mate,I just like to see things which shouldn't work........simply work. I found it ammusing that Craig Beweys TS230 was built just before the event and setup on the day and do a 15.1 pulling a 19t sprocket and getting (i think) best time on road lambretta. But I will be on the dyno beforehand doing what it takes.
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Post by tony on Nov 20, 2011 14:00:06 GMT
just a note soosh... for sprinting , carb set up isnt as critical as road riding or indeed road racing. The motor only runs for 15 seconds or so.
Craig did good though and not knocking what he done..
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Post by hotwheels on Nov 20, 2011 17:06:20 GMT
(I prefer and take great pride building my engines and certainly dont have the finances for others to do it for me but for me thats where the learning starts......) Agree nic i enjoy building my scooters but havnt got your big wallet to risk building/tuning my own engine (2p) ((pk flywheel)) ;D only joking mate, but seriously how much has it cost you putting right things like cheap flywheel etc.... These falc motors are so powerfull that they just find the next weakest component and BANG!!my clutch fooked at santa pod because of user error!!!me :'(Tried a 2nd gear pull off... and exploded my clutch). So as i said earlier horses for courses, road/mild race tune do it yourself or local tuner, but if you want the ultimate then no cutting corners get it done right first time inc. Dyno etc... As there wont be a second,
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Post by 225worb on Nov 20, 2011 18:39:56 GMT
(I prefer and take great pride building my engines and certainly dont have the finances for others to do it for me but for me thats where the learning starts......) Agree nic i enjoy building my scooters but havnt got your big wallet to risk building/tuning my own engine (2p) ((pk flywheel)) ;D only joking mate, but seriously how much has it cost you putting right things like cheap flywheel etc.... These falc motors are so powerfull that they just find the next weakest component and BANG!!my clutch fooked at santa pod because of user error!!!me :'(Tried a 2nd gear pull off... and exploded my clutch). So as i said earlier horses for courses, road/mild race tune do it yourself or local tuner, but if you want the ultimate then no cutting corners get it done right first time inc. Dyno etc... As there wont be a second, Big wallet Hmm wher on earth did you get that from 2P yep my fault , cheap flywheel i dont think so , it was a modified item that had been machined rather to much and spat everything out and made a reeeeet mess toooo Doh ! It had been on the machine from near the begining of completion it replaced the SHITE HP4 that kept spitting the plastic fans into millions of pieces, And certainly havernt/dont cut the odd corner to reach where it is now remember its road going machine that gets its fair amount of abuse ( BELIEVE ME 8-)on the road, sprinted then back on the road , i say if youve got it FOOOOOKIN use it to its intended use ;D ive visited Jerome on 2 occasions now for set up time 1st time when it was built then 2nd when it broke the cases and had to start again........ Hmmmmmmmmmm how many road going Falcs are there in UK
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Post by 225worb on Nov 20, 2011 19:18:53 GMT
I think i remember soosh was that the motor i beat at santa pod all them years ago!!!!lol! two different types of tuning and tuners, graham/john at kegra built me a jap ts230 that fookin flew and still does, it apparently took graham 3 days to set up on the road outside their shop where i have had idiots with dynos set me up far less extreme motors and blown up within 50 miles. On the other hand show me someone who can make smallframes like mine and tonys go like they do in the uk??? Not so easy, the meticulous detail they apply to both the theory and practice of tuning i have never seen, i shit you not, do you really think a shrewd business man like tino would bother investing so much if he didnt see something here that he cant find anywhere else? There are lots of very good tuners in the uk and i have great respect for them all, terry did me a kwak 135 in 1984 that was brilliant and niks wicked falc got me back into smallie tuning when i had been farting around with pranges but things move on and when you see the results that are now actual on paper...150cc vespa smallframe 100mph in 500m thats awesome and not pub talk, waffly dyno bhp bollox. Horses for courses, if you want fast road motor that will beat ts1s then lots of good guys out there but if you want the absolute fastest who is better?? And if they are then lets see them at the next shootout ;D I'd like to be at next shootout and want to borrow a motor that i know exists bit will have to wait and see.Mate,I just like to see things which shouldn't work........simply work. I found it ammusing that Craig Beweys TS230 was built just before the event and setup on the day and do a 15.1 pulling a 19t sprocket and getting (i think) best time on road lambretta. But I will be on the dyno beforehand doing what it takes. Is that the Guy that Beat the Super Monza......
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Post by hotwheels on Nov 20, 2011 19:32:45 GMT
Not aware of any nic(but watch this space ) My m1r 90ss aint that far away from the falc and thats a road bike that gets well and truly thrashed but what im trying to say is that in my opinion and with a fair amount of experience charleys tuning on smallframes has yet to be beaten!!! There you have it the gauntlett has been thrown to anyone who has a quicker smallframe ;D Ps the super monza is a touring tune that just happens to be fairly nippy off the line!!!
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Post by tony on Nov 20, 2011 19:51:29 GMT
I'd like to be at next shootout and want to borrow a motor that i know exists bit will have to wait and see.Mate,I just like to see things which shouldn't work........simply work. I found it ammusing that Craig Beweys TS230 was built just before the event and setup on the day and do a 15.1 pulling a 19t sprocket and getting (i think) best time on road lambretta. But I will be on the dyno beforehand doing what it takes. Is that the Guy that Beat the Super Monza...... Probably..but then again Craig is a bsso racer and this years grp10 champ. Also the super monza questioned was ridden by a road lad and it was geared with a tv200 gearbox for touring. Its not a comparison although this bike in question had just done the 6hr in spain and was the second lambretta over the line..
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Post by 225worb on Nov 20, 2011 19:55:24 GMT
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